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August 18, 2008

When is it too early for potty time?

Posted: 10:17 AM ET

By Shahreen Abedin
CNN Medical Senior Producer

We have a new piece of furniture in our living room. It’s a potty chair.

It all started when I was browsing a parenting blog and came across a string on potty training. This mother was saying her kid started going in the potty at 9 months. And I thought, hey my baby’s almost 9 months - I should try this too! After all, I know when my baby is about to poop because he gets this unmistakable grimace. So I should be able to run him to the potty chair at the first sign. And besides, we know a couple who figured out that their 6-month-old daughter “goes” every day at 10:15 a.m., so that’s when they sit her on the toilet and so they never deal with poopie diapers – so cool, I thought!

I read all the product recommendation Web sites, figured out which one would best suit our little boy, and promptly went out and purchased a brand new potty chair. My mother-in-law happened to be visiting that week, so she was with me and in her very supportive, non-judgmental way, she went along with it all, waiting patiently for the sales associate to go pull out the non-gender specific colored model from the back. But later on I heard her on the phone with my aunt, and they both seemed to be chuckling. “Yes, he’s only 8 1/2 months, but she’s trying to potty train him,” she said.

When I talked to my own mom, she pointed out that my little one is a boy: “Boys take much longer to potty train, don’t you know?” No, I didn’t know. As a 33-year-old, I tend not to read too many books on how to do this whole parenting thing. I figure, I’ve absorbed enough along the way from other people’s kids to have the basic gist of it, and the rest can come from instinct or common sense.

When I tried putting the baby on the potty chair to get the feel for it, he seemed to be more interested in taking the pot part out and putting it on his head. That’s when I started to wonder if I was totally off the mark with starting this early, so I googled “potty training,” and found that a couple of the health authorities give some pretty solid tips on how to get your kid used to going in the potty, including the suggestion that you put the chair in the living room and let the baby sit on it, fully clothed, so he gets comfortable with it. We put ours right next to the Bumbo chair.

The sites also say that potty training usually doesn’t start until 18 months to two years. A whole more YEAR of this?? Please, folks – am I crazy to think our child might be advanced enough for his age to start going in the potty sooner? And am I really pushing it since he’s a boy – are boys really slower at this game?

Editor's Note: Medical news is a popular but sensitive subject rooted in science. We receive many comments on this blog each day; not all are posted. Our hope is that much will be learned from the sharing of useful information and personal experiences based on the medical and health topics of the blog. We encourage you to focus your comments on those medical and health topics and we appreciate your input. Thank you for your participation.

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Dennis   August 18th, 2008 11:14 am ET

In my view, potty training should be solely on the child's schedule. Help them feel proud of the growth they are making and avoid guilt for mistakes.

Dennis

jl   August 18th, 2008 11:49 am ET

I strongly recommend two books on early potty training:
Diaper Free Before 3 (this one is written by an MD/mom who reviews all the literature on potty-training in a very even-handed way)
and
The Diaper Free Baby (this is more the summary of an online forum/support group for elimination communication, though it also includes early potty training).

The websites I'd been looking at had only hinted at the full amount of information in the above books.

Those strong recommendations from the AAP came from a researcher funded by Pampers. As disposible diapers get better, the average age of pt for boys has moved from 18-20 months to 3 years and 2 months.

For us, early potty training has been fun (starting before the terrible twos cannot be a bad thing) and has saved a ton in diapers, and I wish we'd started earlier, but early training will take longer than starting later does and may result in more accidents overall, even though it results in earlier training. It takes a lot of patience and a sense of humor and isn't for everybody, especially if your entire home is carpeted.

Natalie   August 18th, 2008 1:34 pm ET

About 30 years back in Russia, diapers did not exist, so, we did not have a choice, but to start potty train our babies very early. My son was 2 month old when we started it with him. When he was 11 month old he was fully trained.

I did not go through the same speedy training with my daughter who was born in the USA (thanks G-d!). At 4.5 years old she was still using diapers at night, and it did not bother me at all.

Natalie

Anneliesie   August 18th, 2008 3:58 pm ET

Personally, I didn't see the point in potty training either of mine (girls) until I felt they could handle most of the process independently.

They both day potty trained by around 2.5 yrs old. The older one was able to also wake up & go potty by herseelf at night by around 3.5 yrs old. My youngest still uses a pull up at night, but she won't be 3 until the end of the month.

My advice is always start at around 15-18 months (when they are old enough to take their own pants down & up), and expect the whole process to take about a year – in fits & starts.

It's your expectation that's the key. If he trains in a shorter time, so much the better! But if you expect him to be trained when YOU think he should be able to, you're only setting yourself up for a lot of frustration...

Nasrin Rahman   August 18th, 2008 4:01 pm ET

All my kids were potty trained by 13 months. My son took the longest. This could be two things..one boys are little slow in early stage of their lives or it could be that my nanny was too lazy to watch for signs when he needs to go. Most, if not, all underdeveloped countries do not have diaper business. The children are potty trained very early. That would include all my brothers and sisters i.e 12 of us. We were potty trained by our nannies who did not have option. Trust me non of us are handicapped by it. You could also check out people like Gandhi and others who were potty trained early in their age. We can learn somethings from other parts of the world that could benefit.. Is there as evidence that proves longer you wait, the greater the child is as an adult? Or proof they are disabled because of early potty training? What is this "magic number 18 months +" ? Bottom line.. parents are too busy and wants easily and quick way out and there are junks like article mentioned to put easy to parents head.. it is okay to wait as long as it takes for the child to be with diapers. Sorry and sad.

Missy   August 18th, 2008 5:00 pm ET

I have a nearly 4 year old boy and it wasn't until 2 weeks ago – after over 2 years of exposing him to a potty chair, learning to go at his school, and trying (without success) to get him to go at home that he finally "got it". I think each child has a schedule at which they will pick up potty training. That said, I think it is a parent's responsibility to enable them to pick it up as early as possible. Enable being the key word. Yelling, getting angry, setting too high of expectations, putting them on a timeline, none of those things work. What works is understanding, reminding them of their options, showing the benefits of being a "big boy" and giving them lots of hugs and kisses when they do it in the right place when they are ready works. Keep the faith and he will get potty trained ... when he is ready 8>)

Jenn   August 18th, 2008 7:10 pm ET

We're potty training my son and it's going great....now. We started when he was about 18 months. He peed on the toilet only once. I think we made much too big a deal of it that first time and scared him off. So we laid off and let him do his own thing. He'll be 3 in November and he's really getting the hang of it now. His potty chair is in the living room where he has easy acccess to it. He prefers to go by himself with no help so sometimes he has an accident right in front of the potty if he doesn't sit fast enough or holds it too long.
The real challenge for him is #2. He's afraid to go so he holds it for days until his belly hurts. We know when he's got to go when he starts running around nervously. Then we take off his underwear until he finally lets it go. He gets tons of praise when he does it so we know he'll get the hang of it soon enough.
My feeling is don't rush your son. He'll let you know when he's curious and ready. And just think, he won't be wearing diapers to kindergarten. There is a light at the end of the diaper tunnel.

Shannon   August 18th, 2008 8:45 pm ET

I tried and tried with both of my boys to get them to start training at 2 years of age. Nothin' doin'!!! They were both nearly 4 by the time they were trained and it literally happened overnight. Whew – they were able to start Pre-K in the fall (they are both fall babies) as I was so afraid they might not.

Cami   August 18th, 2008 9:32 pm ET

I don't know, for me it would be more stressful to watch my baby like a hawk for the first signs of needing to go then run like mad to the potty before it hits the diaper, than it would be to just let nature take its course. I also think 18 months to two years for a boy is rather optimistic. I know of very few little guys who make it out of diapers before three. Parents seem to put a lot of emphasis on this when it's such a brief stage in a child's life.

corey   August 18th, 2008 11:35 pm ET

Potty training comes down to a child learning that it feels a lot more comfortable to be in cotton underpants vs. the variety of horrific diapers that can be weighted down with deposits. I think that when the child becomes aware and the parent is clued in to that then why not try to start training then? It is a parent/child collaberation. Both my boys were trained by age two and they were neither pushed nor prodded – they were ready.
I realize we live in a time period when children are encouraged to become independent on their own – and that is great. However, if a child demonstrates an awareness to go then it is up to the parents to jump on and help them to be successful. It's better for everyone.

Jeana   August 18th, 2008 11:45 pm ET

As someone who has worked in child care for over four years, I can tell you that the traditional time to begin potty training is indeed around 18 months to two years. A good time to start is when your child begins waking up from naps or in the morning, and their diaper is still dry. Knowing that it they must have something in their bladder, that is a good time to suggest that your child might want to sit on the toilet. This child-lead potty training is standard in daycare settings and is the traditional method suggested to parents.

As an expectant mother, I am intrigued by the idea of infant potty training, also known as elimination communication (see http://www.diaperfreebaby.org). It is based on the idea of exactly what you have talked about: noticing your child's signs that they need to go or recognizing a pattern and then responding accordingly to try to get your baby to go on the potty as much as possible, so as to at least reduce the number of diapers you have to change. I haven't tried this method yet myself to see how well it works, but from reading what other people have said, you kinda get out of it what you put into it.

There are some other things to think about, though, when potty training your child. When most people think of a potty trained child, they think of a child that recognizes for themselves that they have to go potty, walks into the bathroom themselves, uses the toilet themselves, wipes themselves, flushes themselves, and washes and dries their own hands. Obviously, this is not going to be fully complete until the child has not only learned to walk, but has developed some sense of responsibility, which usually happens around the time the child is 2-3 years old. This is why most people would find it ridiculous that you would even think of trying to potty train your 9 month old.

What you would be doing for your 9 month old would be something completely different than what people normally think of for potty training. The child indeed is too young to take responsibility for his own pottying. It would actually be you and/or other adults doing all the work from recognizing your child's signs to placing your child on the potty to cleaning the child up afterwards. The more traditional potty training that gives these responsibilities over to the child will still have to be done at a later time, but maybe you can save some diapers between now and then.

Emily   August 18th, 2008 11:59 pm ET

As long as you're not putting any pressure on him to "perform," I don't see any problem with putting it in the living room and seeing what happens.

chris   August 19th, 2008 12:12 am ET

I don't believe in "training." Wait until they are ready – around three years old and do it in a day! At that age children have the communication skills needed and their bodies are developed enough to control their new found skills. It worked for me six times and counting!

Kelly   August 19th, 2008 4:53 am ET

Each child is different, not just based on their own personality and learning ability but also the teaching ability of their parents and/or potty trainer, I had a niece who potty trained at 15 months and another niece who potty trained at well over 3 years old (different sets of parents), the parents of the 15 month old were more consistent with teaching her everyday rather then a few days here and there or giving up for weeks and/or months at a time, therefore she was able to pick up the potty skill quicker then that of my other niece.

Bradley   August 19th, 2008 8:03 am ET

i have a daughter who has had her boy on the potty for at least three months and his first birthday is in October. It seemed that the trick was recognizing when he normally goes and putting him on the pot then. Good luck.

Ben   August 19th, 2008 10:22 am ET

My sister potty trained her son early. As soon as he started eating solid foods, after his breakfast she would take him in the bathroom hold him on the potty, squat in front of him and make a straining face. He would do his business every time. This was back in the days of cloth diapers and she said she had very few dirty diapers to wash.

As for the peeing part, her theory was as soon as you are ready to start training them put them in cloth panties. If they have an accident, they don't like the urine running down their legs and they soon learn to go in the potty. If they still have on diapers or pull-ups of the type they have for kids now days, they don't suffer the discomfort of wetting themselves and don't learn to go as quickly.

At least that how she did it over 30 years ago and both of her kids (a boy and a girl) were potty trained by the time they were 2.

TK   August 19th, 2008 12:01 pm ET

If you WANT to potty train you son that early, HE isn't being trained ... YOU are. Until he can do it all by himself (taking his pants off and sitting on the potty), he really isn't trained as you're still doing all the work. My sister has 4 boys and I have 2 girls ... and boys DEFINITELY take longer, mostly because their development is slightly slower, but ultimately, it's about the child showing interest and being developmentally able to master the task. Either way, you still have to wipe a poopy butt, but if it feels like progress to you to hold your son over the potty, groovy. However, I've found, and most of my mom friends agree, that the process is much simpler and MUCH quicker if you wait for the child to be ready. My oldest was 18 months the first time she pooped on the potty, but we never pressured her and waited for her to want to do it again. We asked if she wanted to use the potty, but didn't push the point if she said no. She was a little over 2 before she wanted to use the potty regularly, BUT when we switched to underwear, she only had 1 accident and it was never an issue. So, I would wait, but just like all parenting choices, it's up to you, just be consistent.

Jen   August 19th, 2008 3:14 pm ET

Both of my boys were exposed to potty chairs at about 18 months. We found it a very frustrating process at that age. At about 3 yrs and 3 months my husband and I took our boys to the store to buy 'big boy' underwear explaining that there weren't anymore diapers. They both thought is was cool to have underwear. They both bought into it right away and we only had one accident between the two of them. No night time accidents at all. Potty training early may be nice but it is not any fun for the kids or parents to be cleaning up messes so allowing them the time to fully understand the concept definitely worked for us.

Grace   August 19th, 2008 5:02 pm ET

I would not put a potty chair in the livingroom, I think that is confusing. My babies/toddlers knew that 'going to the bathroom' happened in the bathroom, sometimes following a parent into the room. A potty chair is not like other chairs.

There are several factors – cloth diapers do make it more obvious to the child that they might not want to run around in wet pants. And there is child readiness, and of course providing the information to the child. There are books and videos written for preschoolers that can help reinforce the idea.

My daughter, before age 1, would tell me when her diaper was wet, and didn't like diaper changes. Being a new mom with a lot of faith in my child, I told her that if she didn't like diapers she should learn to use the potty shortly after her first birthday. It took till about 18 months for her to be fully potty trained, and it was many months of her telling me she had to go (including at stores!) and me stopping and taking her.

My son (next child) was exposed to the idea, showed not that much interest in learning to do it until he was closer to 18 months, and in 2 months went from diapers to underwear.

Had my kids not come along with the environment we provided, I would have tried the 'toilet training in 1 day' method - but that requires an older child, and my first started at what I think was a touch too young, she didn't have the control to always hold it in long enough to make it to the bathroom.

Dr. Brazelton has said that in terms of child development, someplace around/before that 18 month mark, children are learning -where things belong-. Most have also not hit the sometimes irrationally defiant '2's'. So yes, if it's possible, I would say to work with him during that window.

I'd also like to point out that as a parent there is a wealth of resources available to you that was not available to parents a generation ago, and there's more than one way to successfully approach almost any parenting situation. So yes, get out there and read books and websites, so you can make more informed choices instead of hoping that one of your friends choices is a perfect fit for you and your child.

Bryan in Illinois   August 19th, 2008 8:22 pm ET

Children who patty train before 2 years historically are more prone to constipation. Whether this would apply to kids who are 'potty trained' before they can even walk is unclear to me.

Nonetheless, this Diaper Free movement is more a reaction to other kids potty training as late as 4 and 5 years old. The proliferation of pull-ups has done more to slow potty training than anything else. If there was no choice but to potty train, many more kids would potty train after the 2 y/o mark. I think parents who are trying to go diaper free are really just expending a lot of energy trying to defeat a child's natural development.

sharon   August 20th, 2008 1:31 am ET

My daughter read a book called how to potty train in one day for my grandson. It stated that the child must first be able to dress and undress himself otherwise he will have multiple accidents. So we concentrated on that first. Then we let him drink a lot of liquids and took him potty every hour on the hour. Set him on the seat. If he went he got a small piece of candy. In a couple of days we had a potty trained little boy... we then taught him how to stand to go and use toilet paper in the toilet as targets...

fatima   August 20th, 2008 2:00 am ET

my 3 y/o daughter was potty trained within 3-4 days. that was when she was 2 1/2 y/o. currently, she still has accidents of about 1-2 times in a month. most of these episodes is because she forgot the " rountine" bathroom trip before bedtime. she does say " sorry" all of these accidents.

Alle from Vermont   August 20th, 2008 2:03 pm ET

I agree with Dennis. I purchased a potty chair for my 23-month old daughter about 3-4 months ago. It's in the bathroom so she can put the lid up and sit on it clothed or unclothed. She has a tendency to want to go where Mommy goes, so when I go to the potty, she's right there. She mimicks wiping, even fully clothed and has her babbling commentary of the potty. Her father and I are allowing her to progress at her own pace. If you attempt to rush potty training prior to 18 months, there have been instances (that I've heard of) where some children regress and end up back in diapers. Don't rush it, don't make them grow up any faster than they already do. In less than a year you'll be wishing you were cooing over your toothless newborn again. Be patient, in everything.

*From one parent to another*

Alle from Vermont   August 20th, 2008 2:04 pm ET

P.P.S. An excellent gentle diapers-to-potty book my daughter loves and appears to understand is No More Diapers for Ducky. Cute, short story for most people.

Praetorian, Fort Myers   August 20th, 2008 3:08 pm ET

If they're able to walk–they're able to be potty trained.
The same cognitive ability is required. Children mature enough to ambulate solo–will likely not appreciate the healthy solida waste bulge in their backside while wearing diapers or training paints–and do everything they can to eliminate the waste in an appropriate receptacle (ie the potty chair).

Jeff   August 20th, 2008 5:35 pm ET

I think too much effort is spent on this subject. The amount of time and frustration people waste on "training" is entertaining. The ability for your nine month old to pee in a bucket does not make him "gifted". I have never seen a healthy, sober 20 year old who urinates in his clothing. Training or not, they'll figure it out!

Rubbing my Labrador's nose in it seemed to work...

Marel Hanks MD   August 20th, 2008 7:46 pm ET

Note to parents: Potty training is a function of neurological maturation. Children may want to pee in the potty but they don't have the neurological control until after 24 months of age. Children would like to walk at 6 months, but they don't have the neurological control yet. Anyone who thinks they potty trained their child at 9 months has really just trained themselves to put the baby on the potty every 10 to 15 minutes and occassionally caught a spontanious urination. If you wait until the child is ready, it can happen in about a week and be fairly painless.

jl   August 21st, 2008 11:08 am ET

There's a lot of misinformation out there on the "dangers" of early potty training.

Early gentle potty training, elimination communication (which often starts shortly after birth, where the parents learn to sense their children's cues), or potty learning does NOT lead to constipation. What leads to constipation is harsh methods of potty training. The late potty training movement was in some ways a reaction to truly horrific methods recommended by some doctors forcing children to potty train early. (You can see citations in the Potty Free Before Three book above.)

It's also definitely not true that they don't have neurological control until 24 months– there's plenty of evidence around the world, especially where disposable diapers don't exist, that isn't the case. (Citations available in pretty much any EC book.) I know plenty of babies who were EC'd at birth who were completely potty trained in the traditional sense by 12 months once they were able to walk to the potty on their own. We didn't start that early.

Babies do begin aware of their bodily functions. With disposable diapers we diaper train them rather than potty train them. Before they can use the potty on purpose they have to be untrained. There are several windows of opportunity for starting potty training from birth to late toddler-hood and the process is a little different depending on when you start. Starting earlier is different than starting later– the child does need more help with certain steps (removing underpants/diaper, for instance) and the focus tends to be different. The problems that one encounters are also different– we didn't have refusal and tantrums like people I know pt-ing older toddlers, but we did have to occasionally remove and clean wet underpants for a longer period of time. (If it ever got frustrating for anybody we'd just put him back in diapers for the rest of the day.)

The end goal with early training isn't usually training itself. I like the metaphor that it's like eating– your child isn't a genius if he eats solid food earlier or later (within a long time window), but it is part of a person's regular bodily functioning. There's no reason not to give opportunities but one should never force. There's also no problem in putting it off for later if it doesn't work for the family. Very few kids go to kindergarten in diapers.

MRB   August 21st, 2008 12:06 pm ET

Maybe it was luck but my daughter is a early success story. We bought a potty around 9 months (and yes, it's been in every room in the house), we never made a big deal about it just talked about it and compared it to the times she saw us using the bathroom. She wore big girl panties (I recommend the trainer panties, thicker and less mess to clean up but she still got the wet panty effect) evrey day and by 13 months she was consitantly peeing, it took a few more months for the other part to kick in but by 18 months she was accident free. We had great help from her daycare who was more than willing to run her 10 times a day to the bathroom and as requested did not make a big deal out of accidents. Everything was low key and no stress!! She is quickly approaching 3 and everything is just fine. Trust your instinct, friends laughed at us in the beginning but we were right about her ability/want to learn. Who cares if you still have to go into the bathroom to "help" them, in due time they won't need us anymore and we will miss the great potty time conversations we had!!

Jamie   August 21st, 2008 12:40 pm ET

Like anything else in parenting, do what is best for your child.

Carol   August 22nd, 2008 12:17 am ET

I don't know the best age for potty training, but I do know the diaper companies have made alot of money and create alot of pollution but the increased use of pull-ups and diapers for bigger and bigger kids.

anonymous   August 22nd, 2008 7:25 am ET

My first child – turned out to be twins. I dreaded potty training, having to do it with two kids and my first time trying to train.

With a baby as young as yours – you are simply training yourself, not the baby.

My mom trained me at 18 months and dealt with constant accidents. With their other three children she waited until much later – went much faster and dramatically fewer accidents!

Diapers aren't that bad – and are easier than constantly asking if the child needs facilities and looking for public restrooms on a moment's notice.

I waited until our children were two and a half – it took 10 days to train them and we had very few accidents – because they were ready! You are setting your self, and more importantly your son, up for stress, frustration and a sense of failure.

Gator   August 24th, 2008 1:57 am ET

I think a lot of parents are lazy and life overall has become to hectic to consistently place an infant on a potty to get them "trained" in elimination. Plus we live in the US where consumer products are king- way not delay the process for a few years and Corporate America can rake in the extra billions per yer.

You don't see infants in Africa wearing diapers until they are 4 years old. My mother was a professional child caregiver, and as with all of her children she has stated that once a child can sit well alone they are ready to start potty training. Now, I don't expect miracles but at 6 months I started putting my daughter on the potty. After two days she knew what was expected and does the job almost immediately after I place her on the potty. She smiles and is so happy to get my encouragement. At almost ten months she isn't dry yet but is close. We are not forcing the issue but taking it one day at a time.

Ann   August 24th, 2008 11:32 am ET

I cannot believe how much wasted energy parents put into this whole potty process. Kids need to be physically ready, and that doesn't happen at 9 months! Wait for some signs, like being dry when they wake up in the morning and being able to pull pants up/down by themselves. For heaven's sake, folks, take a chill pill and let things happen the way they should, for the sake of yours and your kid's sanity.

When my daughter started climbing up on the big potty, I bought her a potty chair. She developed a natural curiosity for it, and I also let her watch me so she knew what was supposed to happen in the bathroom. After awhile, when SHE was ready (not me), she started using the potty on her own. I don't think we ever read a book or watched a video on the topic. Why is that necessary?

Be patient and let your child lead the way in this process. Stop thinking of it as a reflection of your parenting skills.

(And whoever thought of putting the potty chair in the living room? Ridiculous.)

A, Wells   August 24th, 2008 5:09 pm ET

The reason why children are being potty trained later and later is because of the efficiency of the disposable diapers. The child does not feel anything; thus, there is no signal sent to the brain. I had an old time nanny tell me that around one years old, put the thinnest pair of pants on the child and whenever they go to the bathroom, they get a real message that something is messy. Fortunately, I had tiled floors and tried this with my two children. Sure enough, they would say 'e-w-w-w' and I would run to the putty chair with them. Within a month, both boy and girl were potty trained. They did not like the wet and/or messy feeling that happened. With the disposable diapers, so much is absorbed that they never get this message and could stay forever in the soiled diaper. Try it...it worked for me and for many of my friends.

Amy   August 24th, 2008 10:54 pm ET

My daughter potty trained at 18 months old very easily and in a very short amount of time with no accidents

Both my boys trained at 2 1/2 and 3 years old and had accidents for months afterward

In my opinion it is so much easier to train a girl and the boys you have to wait until they show the signs of intrest.

Vic   November 4th, 2008 12:08 pm ET

Thanks for all you do in helping me fulfill my dreams.,

Advice for Parenting   May 5th, 2009 1:07 am ET

Patience is a huge virtue in parenting. While there are some fairly well established guidelines on timelines, they are just that: guidelines.

But you're also right that potty training tips can go a long way toward speeding things up and letting you keep your sanity.

Good luck with your little boy!

Danielle   October 13th, 2009 7:47 am ET

My daughter was fully trained at 2 years old. We started when she was about 18 months and of course there was some accidents along the way, but we took it naturally as part of learning.

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@sanjayguptacnn: just wanted to thank all of you out in twitterland. I may hit a million followers today. wow... thanks for riding along on the journey.
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@sanjayguptacnn: heard the most stunning description of what happened inside ft hood. the person I interviewed was shot 3 times. cnn, 10p. #forthood
Updated: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:46:04 +0000
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